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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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 Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject: Menneske |
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This is 4742416, SH (30). I've made five not-very-helpful moves.
| Code: |
+---------------+---------------+-------------+
| 358 238 7 | 234 1 48 | 9 358 6 |
| 6 1238 258 | 9 238 7 | 135 358 4 |
| 1389 4 89 | 5 38 6 | 7 2 13 |
+---------------+---------------+-------------+
| 149 7 3 | 12 245 159 | 8 6 159 |
| 2 18 489 | 6 3458 4589 | 15 35 7 |
| 189 5 6 | 13 7 189 | 2 4 139 |
+---------------+---------------+-------------+
| 458 9 458 | 7 45 3 | 6 1 2 |
| 135 6 15 | 8 9 2 | 4 7 35 |
| 7 23 245 | 14 6 145 | 35 9 8 |
+---------------+---------------+-------------+
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Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site |
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peterj
Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Marty, you can add a Kite(3) r5, c4 to your list of not-so-helpful moves...
I am going to work on it after dinner... looks fishy to me? |
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Menneske |
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| Marty R. wrote: | This is 4742416, SH (30). I've made five not-very-helpful moves.
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Check [c3] for another not-very-helpful move. After that, you need to find an easy Kite and a difficult Kite. They'll help for awhile. |
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peterj
Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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From Marty's grid...
This "fish" move stood out - I saw it as an "almost" x-wing but it's probably a mutant halibut or something!
| Code: | kraken x-wing
x-wing(3) r3, r8
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(3)r3c5 - r5c5=r6c4 ; r6c9<>3
xy-chain ; (8=1)r5c2 - (1=5)r5c7 - (5=3)r9c7 - (3=1)r2c7 - (1=3)r3c9 - (3=8)r3c5 ; r5c5<>8
skyscraper(4) c1, c4 ; r7c5<>4, r9c3<>4
BUG+1 ; r2c2=8 |
Last edited by peterj on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Nice move with that 3, Peter. I learned that as a Fin Transport.
As to kites, I've looked at the boxes twice and can only find one pivoted in box 1, on 2, flightless and non-transportable. |
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Marty R. wrote: | | As to kites, I've looked at the boxes twice and can only find one pivoted in box 1, on 2, flightless and non-transportable. |
| Code: | r5c4 2-String Kite <> 3 r1c8
r3c2 2-String Kite (grouped) <> 8 r5c5 (terrible to spot)
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| peterj wrote: | From Marty's grid...
This "fish" move stood out - I saw it as an "almost" x-wing but it's probably a mutant halibut or something!
[code]kraken x-wing
x-wing(3) r3, r8
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(3)r3c5 - r5c5=r6c4 ; r6c9<>3
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Peter,
If you add [b5], then you have a finned Franken Swordfish r38b5\c159 w/fin cell r6c4.
It follows by thinking of transporting (3)r3c5 to (3)r6c4 via the strong link/inference in [b5] -- as you effectively demonstrated. |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| daj95376 wrote: | | Marty R. wrote: | | As to kites, I've looked at the boxes twice and can only find one pivoted in box 1, on 2, flightless and non-transportable. |
| Code: | r5c4 2-String Kite <> 3 r1c8
r3c2 2-String Kite (grouped) <> 8 r5c5 (terrible to spot)
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Danny, I'm sorry, I don't have a clue where those kites are. R5c4? It's solved.  |
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peterj
Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Marty R. wrote: | | daj95376 wrote: | | Marty R. wrote: | | As to kites, I've looked at the boxes twice and can only find one pivoted in box 1, on 2, flightless and non-transportable. |
| Code: | r5c4 2-String Kite <> 3 r1c8
r3c2 2-String Kite (grouped) <> 8 r5c5 (terrible to spot)
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Danny, I'm sorry, I don't have a clue where those kites are. R5c4? It's solved. |
Marty, I think Danny's notation is a little confusing here - I think r5c4 means the Kite is in row 5 and column 4 (pivot in box 5). That's the Kite(3) I mentioned earlier. The grouped kite on 8 is row 3 and column 2 (pivot in box 1). As Danny said hard to see - both of the links are grouped - I certainly did not see it! |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't see a kite on 3. For r1c8<>3 I do see simple coloring, as opposed to a kite. |
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peterj
Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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From your posted grid
| Code: | +----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 358 238 7 | a234 1 48 | 9 58-3 6 |
| 6 1238 258 | 9 238 7 | 135 358 4 |
| 1389 4 89 | 5 b38 6 | 7 2 13 |
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 149 7 3 | 12 245 159 | 8 6 159|
| 2 18 489 | 6 b3458 4589 | 15 b35 7 |
| 189 5 6 | a13 7 189 | 2 4 139|
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 458 9 458 | 7 45 3 | 6 1 2 |
| 135 6 15 | 8 9 2 | 4 7 35 |
| 7 23 245 | 14 6 145 | 35 9 8 |
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
kite(3) (3)r1c4=r6c4 - r5c5=r5c8 ; r1c8<>3
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 358 a238 7 | 234 1 48 | 9 583 6 |
| 6 a1238 258 | 9 238 7 | 135 358 4 |
| b1389 4 b89 | 5 b38 6 | 7 2 13 |
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 149 7 3 | 12 245 159 | 8 6 159|
| 2 a18 489 | 6 345-8 4589 | 15 35 7 |
| 189 5 6 | 13 7 189 | 2 4 139|
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 458 9 458 | 7 45 3 | 6 1 2 |
| 135 6 15 | 8 9 2 | 4 7 35 |
| 7 23 245 | 14 6 145 | 35 9 8 |
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
grouped kite(8) (8)r5c2=r12c2 - r3c13=r3c5 ; r5c5<>8
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| Quote: | | I do see simple colouring |
maybe we are just crossing-wires on names? Are you reserving "kite" for the case where there is only a weak link in the pivot block i.e the multi colouring case as opposed to the simple colouring case? In either case it's still a kite. |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | maybe we are just crossing-wires on names? Are you reserving "kite" for the case where there is only a weak link in the pivot block i.e the multi colouring case as opposed to the simple colouring case? In either case it's still a kite. |
Peter, the way I learned it, a kite is nothing more than a skyscraper, except perpendicular rather than parallel. It is a simple form of multi-coloring; the latter must be weakly linked, i.e., more than two candidates in a house. Without the weak link it is a simple coloring chain.
However, there are examples of kites in various places which are not weakly linked, so maybe a permanent state of confusion will exist. It is my belief that any techniques should be reduced to their simplest form, i.e., simple coloring in this case. I'll just have to be more aware that not everyone uses the same terminology. |
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peterj
Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Understand your view, but I think these names belong in different categories.
For me I think of colouring and multi-colouring as a technique/a method that helps the solver find a single digit pattern - essentially x-chains/turbot fish. Some of those patterns have names - like Kite and Skyscraper, some don't. Similarly with Medusa Colouring, a method, and assorted named AIC/wings that it might produce, a pattern. |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The essential difference between simple and multi-coloring as I was taught, is that simple coloring consists of a single chain and multi-coloring two chains. That's why I was taught that skyscrapers and kites are multi, because they were weakly linked and, therefore, two chains. |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Peter, I can follow the grouped kite on 8, but I doubt I'd be able to recognize one. And like the other one, I'm not sure it's a kite, but it's certainly grouped.  |
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Code: | Marty's grid after r8c3=1
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| 358 238 7 | 234 1 48 | 9 358 6 |
| 6 1238 258 | 9 238 7 | 135 358 4 |
| 1389 4 89 | 5 38 6 | 7 2 13 |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 149 7 3 | 12 245 159 | 8 6 159 |
| 2 18 489 | 6 3458 4589 | 15 35 7 |
| 189 5 6 | 13 7 189 | 2 4 139 |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 458 9 458 | 7 45 3 | 6 1 2 |
| 35 6 1 | 8 9 2 | 4 7 35 |
| 7 23 245 | 14 6 145 | 35 9 8 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
# 67 eliminations remain
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| Code: | Colors on (3) Kite cells
+-----------------------------------+
| 3 3 . | B3 . . | . -3 . |
| . 3 . | . 3 . | 3 3 . |
| 3 . . | . 3 . | . . 3 |
|-----------+-----------+-----------|
| . . 3 | . . . | . . . |
| . . . | . B3 . | . G3 . |
| . . . | G3 . . | . . 3 |
|-----------+-----------+-----------|
| . . . | . . 3 | . . . |
| 3 . . | . . . | . . 3 |
| . 3 . | . . . | 3 . . |
+-----------------------------------+
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| Code: | Multiple Colors equivalent on (3) Kite cells
+-----------------------------------+
| 3 3 . | B3 . . | . -3 . |
| . 3 . | . 3 . | 3 3 . |
| 3 . . | . 3 . | . . 3 |
|-----------+-----------+-----------|
| . . 3 | . . . | . . . |
| . . . | . P3 . | . A3 . |
| . . . | G3 . . | . . 3 |
|-----------+-----------+-----------|
| . . . | . . 3 | . . . |
| 3 . . | . . . | . . 3 |
| . 3 . | . . . | 3 . . |
+-----------------------------------+
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A rose by any other name still drives my allergies crazy!
| Code: | Multiple Colors equivalent on (8) Kite cells
+-----------------------------------+
| 8 P8 . | . . 8 | . 8 . |
| . P8 8 | . 8 . | . 8 . |
| G8 . G8 | . B8 . | . . . |
|-----------+-----------+-----------|
| . . . | . . . | 8 . . |
| . A8 8 | . -8 8 | . . . |
| 8 . . | . . 8 | . . . |
|-----------+-----------+-----------|
| 8 . 8 | . . . | . . . |
| . . . | 8 . . | . . . |
| . . . | . . . | . . 8 |
+-----------------------------------+
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Code: | after basics, (3) Kite, and (8) Kite
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| 358 38-2 7 | a23 1 4 | 9 58 6 |
| 6 1238 25 | 9 238 7 | 135 358 4 |
| 1389 4 89 | 5 38 6 | 7 2 13 |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 149 7 3 | 12 24 59 | 8 6 159 |
| 2 18 489 | 6 34 589 | 15 35 7 |
| 189 5 6 | b13 7 89 | 2 4 c139 |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 48 9 48 | 7 5 3 | 6 1 2 |
| 35 6 1 | 8 9 2 | 4 7 d35 |
| 7 f23 25 | 4 6 1 | e35 9 8 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
# 50 eliminations remain
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| Code: | (2=3)r1c4 - r6c4=r6c9 - r8c9=r9c7 - (3=2)r9c2 => r1c2<>2
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[Edit: deleted most of the message body. I just realized that I was describing a 6-cell W-Wing. Aaaagh!]
Last edited by daj95376 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:26 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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peterj
Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Danny, slightly confused as to if you really mean r5 or r6  In the last AIC (the w-wing-like one) it should be r6c4=r6c9, but there is also a strong link in r5 for the rest of the discussion which potentially makes the long x-chain you describe |
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Peter,
Corrections done (hopefully).
Regards, Danny |
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tlanglet
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I enjoyed reading all the posts for the re-fresher course. It is also interesting how terminology can be confusing even in basic techniques.
I still like the 'almost" moves and used one for this two step solution.
(8=3)r3c5-(3=1)r3c9-r46c9=r5c7-(1=8)r5c2; r5c5<>8
| Code: | *-----------------------------------------------------------*
| 358 238 7 | 23 1 4 | 9 358 6 |
| 6 1238 25 | 9 238 7 | 135 358 4 |
| 1389 4 89 | 5 38 6 | 7 2 13 |
|-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
| 149 7 3 | 12 24 59 | 8 6 159 |
| 2 18 489 | 6 34 589 | 15 35 7 |
| 189 5 6 | 13 7 89 | 2 4 139 |
|-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
| 48 9 48 | 7 5 3 | 6 1 2 |
| 35 6 1 | 8 9 2 | 4 7 35 |
| 7 23 25 | 4 6 1 | 35 9 8 |
*-----------------------------------------------------------* |
Axy-wing 23-8 vertex (23)r1c4 pincers (28)r1c2 & (38)r3c5 with fin (3)r1c2; r3c13<>8
| Code: | If fin is true then
(3)r1c2 -r1c4=r6c4-(3)r6c9 =(3)r3c9-(3=8)r3c5;
\ /
-r9c2=r9c7-(3)r8c9
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Ted |
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