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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: Hopelessly stuck |
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This is my classic nightmare of a puzzle: few bivalue cells, loads of four- and five-candidate cells and I can't eliminate a thing.
Code: |
+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
| 6 1238 138 | 2349 7 249 | 5 149 12 |
| 23 5 4 | 1 23 89 | 789 789 6 |
| 12 9 7 | 24568 2456 2458 | 248 148 3 |
+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
| 139 136 2 | 3579 8 1579 | 37 3567 4 |
| 5 13468 1368 | 2347 1234 1247 | 2378 3678 9 |
| 7 348 389 | 23459 2345 6 | 1 358 258 |
+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
| 8 1367 1369 | 4567 1456 1457 | 349 2 15 |
| 1249 127 19 | 24578 1245 3 | 6 14589 158 |
| 1234 1236 5 | 2468 9 1248 | 348 1348 7 |
+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
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Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site |
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nataraj
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Neither coloring nor Medusa seem to help ...
Where'd you find this baby?
Edit: I let Andrew Stuart's Sudoku Solver take a shot at it.
"Death Blossom" and - get this - "Bowman Bingo"
I'd say just a wee bit above my head |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Where'd you find this baby? |
This is from Paul's Pages, rated Outlaw, Gallery puzzle #81.
http://www.paulspages.co.uk/sudoku/
These puzzle are inconsistent, like most others are, but generally are fairly difficult, but this is ridiculous. |
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storm_norm
Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Posts: 1741
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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S.E. ===> 8.9 !!! |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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storm_norm wrote: | S.E. ===> 8.9 !!! |
OK, I'll bite, what's that supposed to mean? |
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keith
Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 3355 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:39 am Post subject: |
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This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer.
Keith |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: |
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keith wrote: | This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer.
Keith |
I assume a rating of 10 is the most difficult? Does anyone know what a typical VH from here would rate? |
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storm_norm
Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Posts: 1741
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: |
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Marty R. wrote: | keith wrote: | This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer.
Keith |
I assume a rating of 10 is the most difficult? Does anyone know what a typical VH from here would rate? |
actually the hardest found go over 11 on sudoku explainer's rating scale.
depending on how fast your computer is, the puzzles that go above a 10 will take the explainer an extremely long time to analyze. I have read where a pentium 4 type processor took a good 8 hours to analyze a 10.6 or so puzzle.
since all the VH puzzles here can be solved with x, xy, xyz-wings, then the ratings probably wouldn't go above a 5.0
the explainer does not see w-wings, ER, or finned x-wings.
instead, SE categorizes xy-chians, turbot fish, kites, skyscrapers, and color wraps/traps all as a subcategory of forcing chains. a single forcing chain needed to solve a puzzle gives the puzzle at least a 7.0
this is just a tad misleading because there are puzzles that require 13 forcing chains that get a rating of 7.2 and then there are some that require 3 forcing chains that get the same rating.
APE, UR, Jellyfish, Swordfish, naked quad, hidden quad and BUG all get a rating below 7.0. |
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ravel
Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 536
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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You can find the SE rating scale here. So VH's would get a rating of 4.2 or 4.4 (like the one by gsf i just posted), but these puzzles also might require a hidden triple (naked something) or a swordfish.
Only a few puzzles with rating above say 7.5 can be solved in an elegant way (for my taste), most of them are pure chaining work. |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that information. |
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Asellus
Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 865 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, my attention was drawn to some ALSs and grouped links that looked as if they might have potential. Some complex multi-branched AICs later, I managed to eliminated some <1>s. This comes mighty close to forcing... so close many won't see any difference. But, I was led there by those patterns and not just a wild stab in the dark. Still... elegant, it is not!
Because of all the branching, I will break the AICs up into separate fragments and label them with letters in brackets.
[A] (1=2)r3c1
[B] from A: (2)r3c1-(2)r3c7=(2)r1c9-(2)r6c9=(2)r5c7
[C] from A: (2)r3c1-(2=3)r2c1-(3)r2c5=(3)r1c4
[D] from C: (3)r1c4-(3=2)r2c5
[E] from B & D: (2)r2c5|r5c7-(2)r5c456|r9c4=(2)r6c4
[F] from D & E: (2)r2c5|r6c4-(2)r8c45|r9c4=(2)r9c6
[G] from A & F: (2)r3c1|r9c6-(2)r89c1|r9c2=(2-7)r8c2=(7)r7c2-(7)r7c46=(7)r8c4
[H] from C, G & E: (2)r6c4|(3)r1c4|(7)r8c4-({237}=4)r5c4-(4)r5c2=(4)r6c2
[I] from E & H: (2)r6c4|(4)r6c2-({24}={358})r6c589-({38}=9)r6c3-(9=1)r8c3
Thus, we have the following strong inference: (1)r3c1=(1)r8c3
and
r1c3|r89c1<>1
It doesn't appear to be of all that much help in moving forward. But, at least it's something. |
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keith
Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 3355 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Asellus wrote: | Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, ... |
Well, Sudoku Susser starts with these hints:
R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1)
R7C2<>1 (Implied by all valid values of R7C2)
R1C3<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
R1C4<>9 (Implied by all R4=1 squares)
R4C1<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
R6C4<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
R7C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
R8C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
R8C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
R9C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
Keith |
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nataraj
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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keith wrote: | Asellus wrote: | Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, ... |
Well, Sudoku Susser starts with these hints:
R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1)
R7C2<>1 (Implied by all valid values of R7C2)
R1C3<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
R1C4<>9 (Implied by all R4=1 squares)
R4C1<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
R6C4<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
R7C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
R8C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
R8C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
R9C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
Keith |
and would there also be one among us to translate Suss into English ?
Quote: |
R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1) |
sure man, plain as day... |
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ravel
Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 536
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Its easy to see it for r4c1=1 and r4c1=9:
r4c1=1 => r3c1=2 => r2c1=3 => r2c5<>3 => r1c4=3 => r1c4<>9
r4c1=9 => r4c46<>9 => r6c4=9 => r1c4<>9
But i had some troubles to see, why r4c1=3 should imply r1c4<>9. My first attempt ended in an empty cell
r4c1=3 => [r4c7=7 and (r8c1=9 => r8c8<>9 => r7c7=9)] => r2c7=8 => r2c6=9
And the elimination is not very useful ... |
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nataraj
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, ravel! At least now I understand what susser is trying to say.
I can only guess at the method susser uses to arrive at these conclusions.
In comparison, "Bowman Bingo" at least has a cute name. |
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Asellus
Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 865 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
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Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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It didn't surprise me that those <1> eliminations are related to <2>s: the AICs I listed are filled with <2>s, including all those of r6. (When pointed out after the fact, I can see how the 3 <2>s of r6 all lead to the <1> eliminations. But, I can't see any way to find such things other than explicit trial and error.)
After much more staring at this thing, I have found a rather simpler branched AIC that is useful:
[A]: ALS[(8)r8c9=(1)r78c9]
[B] from A: (1)r78c9-(1=2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
[C] from A & B: (1)r78c9|(2)r23c1-ALS[({12}={348})r9c178]-(8)r9c46=(8)r8c4; r8c8<>8
The notation may look formidable, but the AIC is actually not so hard to follow. Here's the current grid so you can follow along:
Code: | +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
| 6 1238 38 | 2349 7 249 | 5 149 12 |
| 23 5 4 | 1 23 89 | 789 789 6 |
| 12 9 7 | 24568 2456 2458 | 248 148 3 |
+-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
| 139 136 2 | 3579 8 1579 | 37 3567 4 |
| 5 13468 1368 | 2347 1234 1247 | 2378 3678 9 |
| 7 348 389 | 23459 2345 6 | 1 358 258 |
+-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
| 8 1367 1369 | 4567 1456 1457 | 349 2 15 |
| 249 127 19 | 24578 1245 3 | 6 14589 158 |
| 234 1236 5 | 2468 9 1248 | 348 1348 7 |
+-------------------+--------------------+------------------+ |
Either r8c9 is <8> or there is a {15} locked pair in c9 and b9.
The {15} locked pair means r1c9 is <2> and one of r23c1 is <2> and r9c1 is {34}.
But, the {15} pair also means that r9c8 is {348}.
These things together mean that r9c178 are a {348} locked triple, and r9c46 are not <8>. Thus, r8c4 must be <8> since it is the only remaining <8> in b8.
Since r8c9 and/or r8c4 is <8>, r8c8 cannot be <8>. |
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keith
Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 3355 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
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Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: |
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nataraj wrote: | Thanks, ravel! At least now I understand what susser is trying to say.
I can only guess at the method susser uses to arrive at these conclusions.
In comparison, "Bowman Bingo" at least has a cute name. |
Sudoku Susser is using Bowman's Bingo.
Keith |
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Asellus
Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 865 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
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Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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It is also possible to eliminate a couple of <5>s by exploiting that same r9 locked set:
[A]: (5=1)r7c9
[B] from A: (1)r7c9-(1=2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
[C] from A & B: (1)r7c9|(2)r23c1-({12}={348})r9c178-(8)r9c46=(8)r8c4
[D] from A & C: (1)r7c9|(8)r8c4-({18}=5)r8c9; r6c9|r8c8<>5
It may or may not be interesting that these <5>s and the <8> don't turn up in the Bingo.
[Edit to remove inappropriate ALS notation.]
Last edited by Asellus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Asellus
Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 865 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm... I keep being drawn back to this thing!
Code: | +-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
| 6 1238 38 | 2349 7 249 | 5 149 12 |
| 23 5 4 | 1 23 89 | 789 789 6 |
| 12 9 7 | 24568 2456 2458 | 248 148 3 |
+-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
| 139 136 2 | 3579 8 1579 | 37 3567 4 |
| 5 13468 1368 | 2347 1234 1247 | 2378 3678 9 |
| 7 348 389 | 23459 2345 6 | 1 358 28 |
+-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
| 8 1367 1369 | 4567 1456 1457 | 349 2 15 |
| 249 127 19 | 24578 1245 3 | 6 149 158 |
| 234 1236 5 | 2468 9 1248 | 348 1348 7 |
+-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+ |
The <2> ER in box 1 is helpful again:
[A]: (1=2)r1c9-(2=8)r6c9-ALS[(8=1)r78c9]
[B]: (2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
[C] from A & B: (1)r78c9|(2)r23c1-({12}={49})r8c18-(9=1)r8c3; r8c9<>1 |
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