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nataraj
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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keith wrote: |
The M-wing is so named because, if you do Medusa coloring, it WILL show up as a (minimum) four-cell chain making a Medusa elimination.
So, my question is: If you do Medusa coloring on this grid, will Nataraj' chain show up, making the elimination he identifies? (I have not tried this.)
If yes, I agree it is an M-wing, albeit harder to recognize.
If no, maybe it has another name?
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Ah ... I was not aware that Medusa had anything to do with it ...
Now that you mention it, Keith, I see the connection (start with a bi-value, use strong inferences in both candidates, etc.) Yep, makes sense.
And no, I don't think that my elimination has anything to do with Medusa. First, there are too many weak links and cells with more than two candidates involved. Second, I Medusa'd the given grid, and as Marty said, it quickly turns into a wrap that does much much more than just the one elimination I found.
Therefore: no "M-wing"
If it needs a new name indeed, so be it. Why not call it a "left wing" because obviously we left the orthodox definition of M-wing ?
If you guys think a one-letter wing would be more appropriate, how about r-wing then?
I keep saying "O.K., if it's not an m-wing, it's an - err ..."
(opens and closes mouth)
... "wing" |
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cgordon
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | This is easily solved with XY-Chains or simple Medusa. |
For me, that's like saying it's easily solved by quantum theory or relativity. But since I did once try to learn XY-Chains - where's the XY Chain here? I see three linked 79s but they don't seem to go anywhere.
Cheers |
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Steve R
Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 289 Location: Birmingham, England
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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In Marty’s original grid you could try:
r4c7 = 9 => r9c7 = 7 => r9c1 = 8 => r2c1 = 3 => r4c1 =9 => r4c7 ≠ 9
Steve |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Code: | +-------------+---------+----------+----------
| 2 4 7 | 6 3 8 | 1 9 5 |
| 38 358 358 | 1 7 9 | 4 2 6 |
| 1 6 9 | 2 4 5 | 78 78 3 |
+-------------+---------+----------+----------
| 39 1 4 | 7 5 2 | 39 6 8 |
| 6 38g 2 | 4 89 1 | 5 37f 79e |
| -789 578i 58h | 3 89 6 | 2 4 1 |
+-------------+---------+----------+----------
| 4 9 1 | 5 6 7 | 38 38 2 |
| 5 3-78 38 | 89 2 4 | 6 1 79d |
| 78a 2 6 | 89b 1 3 | 79c 5 4 |
+-------------+---------+----------+---------- |
Craig,
One XY-Chain I saw started with setting r9c1=8 and moved alphabetically from a to i. Then r6c2(i) must be7 and that acts as a pincer with r9c1. There might be some purists who believe it's not an XY-Chain because r6c2 is not a bivalue. |
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cgordon
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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I must be a purist because I once wrote down a posted explanation of extended xy wings (from Keith I think). It went: xy - xy = xy = xy - yz. Nothing like the above. Very confusing to a young lad trying to find his way in the big league ! |
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Asellus
Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 865 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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nataraj's "M-Wing" is only a very slight variant of an M-Wing, and one which has been discussed before on this board. As Marty notes, the basic M-Wing involves a pair of matching bivalues in remote cells. Plus, the links involved are all conjugate. That allows the M-Wing to be colored with basic Medusa.
We could notate the M-Wing as:
YX=X=XY=Y
Or, showing all of the links:
(Y=X)=X=(X=Y)=Y
While all of these links are conjugate in the basic M-Wing, the inferences are strong (in red) and weak (in green).
ravel introduced a "half M-Wing" with an actual weak (only) link in the second position:
YX-X=XY=Y
nataraj's elimination is similar except that the actual weak (only) link is now in the fourth position inside what would otherwise be the second bivalue cell:
YX=X=(X-Y)=Y
If r6c1 were a 79 bivalue instead of a 789 triple, the M-Wing would be just fine and easily recognized. But, that non-pincer bivalue doesn't actually need to be a bivalue and the wing still works.
The "classic" all-conjugate M-Wing is a simple case of basic Medusa. These two forms of "half M-Wings" are simple cases of Medusa multi-coloring. In ravel's case, with the Aa and Bb coloring indicated below the XY notation:
YX-X=XY=Y
Aa-b=Bb=B
The weak link bridges the two clusters with "ab" making "AB" the strong color pair. In nataraj's case:
YX=X=(X-Y)=Y
Aa=A=(a-b)=B
So Medusa coloring IS involved, just multi-coloring instead of basic coloring. For the record, we could have a "half half M-wing" with both weak (only) links present. But, this requires 3-cluster Medusa multi-coloring:
YX-X=(X-Y)=Y
Aa-b=(B-C)=c
The "AB" strong pair and "bc" strong pair induce the "Ac" strong pair of the pincers. But, this getting a bit far afield from that all conjugate M-Wing. Still, it is all related to Medusa and there is a common structure. That common structure is just the underlying AIC:
(Y=X)-(X)=(X-Y)=(Y) |
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nataraj
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Asellus wrote: | ravel introduced a "half M-Wing" with an actual weak (only) link in the second position...
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Actually, that's what inspired my broader interpretation of m-wing - and thus my suggestion to call it "r-wing" (wouldn't want to call it half-half-m-wing:) ), plus of course the fact that the letter "m", when split in half, and then again split in half, looks like an "r":
____
P.S. isn't it funny that what is in realitiy an extension of the m-wing principle should be called "half" m-wing?
edit: just a thought - if we'd follow that logoc and instead of splitting the m in half, we'd double it, and then tack on a transport ...
... wouldn't that give the ULTIMATE WEAPON ?
"My name is Bond Wing. James Bond Wing" ... |
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keith
Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 3355 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | ... isn't it funny that what is in realitiy an extension of the m-wing principle should be called "half" m-wing? |
As I recall, ravel was calling these things "semi remote pairs" because there is a pair that makes an elimination on only one of the candidates. I called it a "half M-wing" because you can add the Medusa link only to one of the pairs.
Following on Assellus' post and Nataraj' comments, I suggest we call all of Asellus' examples "extended M-wings". This is spirit of what we mean with the term "extended XY-wings".
By the way, I really like the use of Medusa to explain how these chains work. It gives me a logical framework as to how to look for them in actual puzzles.
Keith
PS: For those who are thinking "What?" here is more explanation:
http://www.dailysudoku.com/sudoku/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2143 |
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