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 Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:23 am Post subject: copyright |
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why do you think, sudokus could be copyrighted ?
have you done any research on the topic ?
in which countries do you pretend that copyright to be valid ? |
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samgj
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 106
Location: Cambridge
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: copyright |
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| Anonymous wrote: | why do you think, sudokus could be copyrighted ?
have you done any research on the topic ?
in which countries do you pretend that copyright to be valid ? |
I am not a lawyer, so all the following is only my understanding:
The concept of a Sudoku puzzle is not copyrighted (although I think in Japan the name is trademarked). But individual puzzles are implicitly copyrighted, even if there is no explicit notice. This is just like the idea that the crossword concept is free to be exploited by all, but you may not copy a crossword from a newspaper and republish it.
(As I understand it, anything, be it text, puzzles, pictures, whatever, published in books, websites wherever, is copyrighted unless there is an *explicit* declaration to the contrary.)
There may be a few valid points to be discussed here, but I don't think this is the place for lengthly discussions of legal issues, and so I would discourage the idea that we move far in that direction. http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html has lots of useful info on the subject.
Sam |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: copyright |
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| samgj wrote: | | Anonymous wrote: | why do you think, sudokus could be copyrighted ?
have you done any research on the topic ?
in which countries do you pretend that copyright to be valid ? |
I am not a lawyer, so all the following is only my understanding:
The concept of a Sudoku puzzle is not copyrighted (although I think in Japan the name is trademarked). But individual puzzles are implicitly copyrighted, even if there is no explicit notice. This is just like the idea that the crossword concept is free to be exploited by all, but you may not copy a crossword from a newspaper and republish it.
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I think, you may. If it's just the crossword and not the representation.
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(As I understand it, anything, be it text, puzzles, pictures, whatever, published in books, websites wherever, is copyrighted unless there is an *explicit* declaration to the contrary.)
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right, you needn't declare your copyright.
But not "anything" can be copyrighted.
A certain amount of creativity and originality is required.
You can't copyright facts or mathematical entities (which IMO
sudokus are)
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There may be a few valid points to be discussed here, but I don't think this is the place for lengthly discussions of legal issues, and so I would discourage the idea that we move far in that direction.
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hmm, you're going to cut the discussion, should it emerge ?
yes. But that webpage doesn't seem to support your point of view.
See also
http://magictour.free.fr/sudoku.htm
and then scroll down to 6. and follow the links
also one crossword expert in rec.puzzles to the comparison
with crosswords
also about Dutch law and US-law.
You didn't answer in which countries you claim copyright.
-Guenter |
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samgj
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 106
Location: Cambridge
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: copyright |
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| Anonymous wrote: | | samgj wrote: | This is just like the idea that the crossword concept is free to be exploited by all, but you may not copy a crossword from a newspaper and republish it.
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I think, you may. If it's just the crossword and not the representation.
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Surely this is the wrong way round. The representation is irrelevant but the arrangement of the words is copyrighted.
| Quote: | But not "anything" can be copyrighted.
A certain amount of creativity and originality is required.
You can't copyright facts or mathematical entities (which IMO
sudokus are)
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Ah well -- this is where the disagreement is then. I don't have any doubt that making sudokus is creative and therefore subject to copyright rules. And I would be prepared to bet quite large sums of money that if I reproduced the entire contents of a Times Sudoku book, I'd be sued, as I would if I reproduced their crossword output.
| Quote: | hmm, you're going to cut the discussion, should it emerge ?
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Nope, not at all. I just don't think that extensive *uninformed* discussion of this point is useful.
| Quote: | yes. But that webpage doesn't seem to support your point of view.
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Really? That isn't my reading.
From what I see, all the claims of non-copyrightable nature in those links are made by you, so it isn't persuasive as backing up your views.
| Quote: | | You didn't answer in which countries you claim copyright. |
If sudokus are creative, then copyright will apply in all Berne copyright convention nations.
We could probably argue at length whether sudokus are creative or not, but as I say, I don't have doubts about this point. But actually, the more important question is one of morality. It would clearly be morally wrong for me to take advantage of someone else's effort, copying their puzzles without permission, and for instance making money out of ads on a derived website. I suppose making money or not is irrelevant -- trying to break someone else's right to exploit their own creativity and work, or even break their right to control distribution of their output, is for me wrong, and exactly why copyright laws are there.
(Of course the usual "I'm no lawyer" rider should be noted!)
Sam |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Ah well -- this is where the disagreement is then. I don't have any doubt that making sudokus is creative and therefore subject to copyright rules. And I would be prepared to bet quite large sums of money that if I reproduced the entire contents of a Times Sudoku book, I'd be sued, as I would if I reproduced their crossword output. |
Just curious...I thought by very definition, proper sudokus are all constructed logically. therefore, they are analagous to mathematical representations (as you can not copyright numbers, or words).
that having been said, do you verify that each sudoku that you publish is not one represented in the Times or any other published sudoku? I guess my point is that since there are a finite number of proper sudokus (granted, as discussed in other posts, a seemingly infinite number), once, say you publish sudoku number 152, does that mean it prevents all other sudoku publishing people from publishing that puzzle on their site/book/page? |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| oh...and by the way, i do commend you for your work on this site and i am a supporter =) not bashing you...just wondering the logistics/nature of sudokus. |
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DJApe
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: (in)finity |
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Every book contains a finite number of letters.
When you have a finite number of letters, there is a finite number of books that can be written using that number of letters.
I'm going to copy all Shakespeare's works and publish them and make a fortune out of it. Who cares, if I get sued I will claim that it happened only by chance, I got lucky! |
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