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DonM

Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Posts: 51

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject:

daj95376 wrote:

DonM wrote:

I don't see why I have to search out those basic moves of someone else's solution- sometimes a so-called simple xy-wing doesn't jump out at you.

From your explanation, it appears that you consider an XY-Wing to be a Basics move. I, on the other hand, consider it an SSTS move. Hmmm!!!

Daj, I'm assuming that most of your post is in jest because you've seen how we present our manually-derived solutions on the Eureka forum and they are nothing like that.

As to your point above: Put it down to my forgetting that I wasn't posting on the Eureka forum or on a site where the manual solvers have their own terminology. Periodically, there, we would interchange the term 'basic move' with SSTS. Elsewhere it's true that the term 'basic moves' often refers to an even simpler move set than SSTS.

Luke451

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 310
Location: Southern Northern California

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:57 am Post subject:

ronk wrote:

I've seen "sste", "Simple Sudoku to end", quite a bit on the Eureka! forum IIRC. If your basics are different, then ... ?

This is not true, and hasn't been for quite some time. At both Daily and Eureka, players customarily spell out every move after basics. If they fail to do so, they're likely to be called on it.

You have seen stte (singles to the end) or its abbreviation, ste (singles to end), but there are no longer players blowing off necessary moves with "sste."

In any case, it would seem that these acronyms are superfluous in that the cascade of singles and locks speak for themselves.

ronk

Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 398

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject:

Luke451 wrote:

ronk wrote:

I've seen "sste", "Simple Sudoku to end", quite a bit on the Eureka! forum IIRC. If your basics are different, then ... ?

This is not true, and hasn't been for quite some time.
...
....there are no longer players blowing off necessary moves with "sste."

I didn't imply it was being used currently or even recently, and with Eureka's search tool broken, my claim that it was once used can't be easily proven or disproven, and maybe I'm remembering only my usage here, but I don't generally coin terms.

Luke451 wrote:

In any case, it would seem that these acronyms are superfluous in that the cascade of singles and locks speak for themselves.

Purists would say "stte" or "ste", whether stated or assumed, should be singles only.

SudoQ

Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 127

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject:

DonM wrote:

The elegance of a solution (IMO) is often somewhat dependent on how many total moves are required to solve the puzzle.
One person's solution may have 3 advanced moves followed by 2 basic moves to solve a puzzle.
Another person's may have a different set of 3 advanced moves followed by 1 basic move to solve the same puzzle.

I think it is better not to evaluate different solutions in terms of how many non-singles that are needed after the advanced steps.
Otherwise, you could also take into account the non-singles before the steps.
An example:

6..8.2.......14.....46...2.3..9.82.6.8.....5.1.23.7..8.9...36.....26.......4.1..7

Solvers here often first shows the puzzle after basics. It can look like this:

Code:

|-------------------|-------------|----------------|
| 6 135 35 | 8 39 2 | 1359 7 4 |
| 25789 2357 3578 | 57 1 4 | 3589 6 59 |
| 5789 1357 4 | 6 379 59 | 13589 2 159 |
|-------------------|-------------|----------------|
| 3 57 57 | 9 4 8 | 2 1 6 |
| 4 8 9 | 1 2 6 | 7 5 3 |
| 1 6 2 | 3 5 7 | 4 9 8 |
|-------------------|-------------|----------------|
| 58 9 1 | 57 78 3 | 6 4 2 |
| 78 4 378 | 2 6 59 | 159 38 159 |
| 258 235 6 | 4 89 1 | 59 38 7 |
|-------------------|-------------|----------------|

In this example, basics is not required.
HoDoKu's own solution looks like this:

Code:

* Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 3 in b3 => r89c7<>3
* Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 8 in b3 => r89c7<>8
* Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 7 in b8 => r7c1<>7
* Naked Triple: 1,5,9 in r8c679 => r8c13<>5
* X-Wing: 9 r19 c57 => r238c7,r3c5<>9
* 2-String Kite: 5 in r3c6,r7c1 (connected by r7c4,r8c6) => r3c1<>5
* Empty Rectangle: 5 in b9 (r38c6) => r3c7<>5
* W-Wing: 5/9 in r2c9,r3c6 connected by 9 in r1c57 => r2c4,r3c9<>5

You can note that the last step, which solves the puzzle, can be performed immediately after the single steps.

/SudoQ

DonM

Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Posts: 51

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject:

SudoQ wrote:

DonM wrote:

Code:

In this example, basics is not required.
HoDoKu's own solution looks like this:

Code:

* Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 3 in b3 => r89c7<3> r89c7<8> r7c1<7> r8c13<5> r238c7,r3c5<9> r3c1<5> r3c7<5> r2c4,r3c9<>5

You can note that the last step, which solves the puzzle, can be performed immediately after the single steps.

/SudoQ

My point was from the perspective of a manual solver who takes part in solving fairly difficult puzzles (mostly on the Eureka forum) where we follow a fairly standard protocol: Start the puzzle with your first advanced move at the post-SSTS (Simple Sudoku techniques set) position and show all moves (except perhaps locked candidates which we tend to assume others will take into account) to the STTE (singles to the end) point.

So, although we wouldn't tend to be interested in a puzzle as easy as the one you present above, if we did solve it, it would be something like this:

Post SSTS position:

Code:

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 6 135 35 | 8 39 2 | 1359 7 4 |
| 25789 2357 3578 | 57 1 4 | 358 6 59 |
| 789 137 4 | 6 37 59 | 1358 2 159 |
|----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
| 3 57 57 | 9 4 8 | 2 1 6 |
| 4 8 9 | 1 2 6 | 7 5 3 |
| 1 6 2 | 3 5 7 | 4 9 8 |
|----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
| 58 9 1 | 57 78 3 | 6 4 2 |
| 78 4 378 | 2 6 59 | 15 38 159 |
| 258 235 6 | 4 89 1 | 59 38 7 |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*

Code:

W-wing: (59)r2c9/r8c6, (5)r2c4=(5)r7c4 => r9c7=9
stte

Luke451

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 310
Location: Southern Northern California

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject:

ronk wrote:

Luke451 wrote:

ronk wrote:

I've seen "sste", "Simple Sudoku to end", quite a bit on the Eureka! forum IIRC. If your basics are different, then ... ?

This is not true, and hasn't been for quite some time.
...
....there are no longer players blowing off necessary moves with "sste."

ronk, here's proof of your claim; I just came across this while doing some research. This usage used to be quite common when tough puzzles were involved, and I think that is all you were trying to say.

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