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Pat # 176 # 9

 
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Pat



Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Pat # 176 # 9 Reply with quote


    ..8...6...4...2.7.5.....2.1.....6.1.....1.....2.5.4...8.6.....5.9.7...4...1...8..

    [ play ]
Code:

 . . 8 | . . . | 6 . .
 . 4 . | . . 2 | . 7 .
 5 . . | . . . | 2 . 1
-------+-------+------
 . . . | . . 6 | . 1 .
 . . . | . 1 . | . . .
 . 2 . | 5 . 4 | . . .
-------+-------+------
 8 . 6 | . . . | . . 5
 . 9 . | 7 . . | . 4 .
 . . 1 | . . . | 8 . .


the solution-path has an oddity, not very common, i wonder if you'll notice---
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tlanglet



Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Pat # 176 # 9 Reply with quote

Pat wrote:

the solution-path has an oddity, not very common, i wonder if you'll notice---

Pat, the only oddity I noticed is that basics completed the puzzle. Surprised

Ted
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keith



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat,

I did not notice anything unusual. Of course, I expect that your puzzles might involve hidden sets and not "advanced" moves.

The key for me was to figure out where the values 9 and 3 might fall. I do these things on paper with no pencil marks.

Best wishes,

Keith
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I didn't go far enough with basics, but a Type 4 UR on 45 completed it since basics didn't do it for me.
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Luke451



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 310
Location: Southern Northern California

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howzabout a hint, Pat....before you reveal.
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Pat



Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



      a 5-move path uses only "basic" moves,
      surely that's the natural path

    but there is another path
    -- and it's just one move,
    perhaps more elegant
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arkietech



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1834
Location: Northwest Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 2      1      8      | 39     3579   3579   | 6      359    4      |
 | 69     4      39     | 1     *35689  2      | 359    7     *389    |
 | 5      36     7      | 34689  34689  389    | 2      389    1      |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 79     38     3459   | 2389   23789  6      | 34579  1      2389   |
 | 679    368    3459   | 2389   1      3789   | 34579  23589  2389   |
 | 1      2      39     | 5     *3789   4      | 379    6     *389    |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 8      7      6      | 2349   2349   1      | 39     239    5      |
 | 3      9      2      | 7      5-8    58     | 1      4      6      |
 | 4      5      1      | 2369   2369   39     | 8      239    7      |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*
x-wing 8 will solve the puzzle with singles
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Pat



Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



    exactly

      if you notice the X-wing,
      it becomes a 1-move puzzle

        so,
        which path would you prefer ?
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arkietech



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1834
Location: Northwest Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat wrote:
which path would you prefer ?

I will ignore advanced moves while doing basics. Why? I don't know. Confused
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Pat



Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arkietech wrote:

I will ignore advanced moves while doing basics

that's my normal approach,
the 5-move path is what i'd consider natural

i only went looking for something else
because of the additional information i had

    background:

    i was running some tests on a puzzle-collection for the Patterns Game --
    i had generated 386 puzzles
    at difficulty-levels which could be interesting for me,
    and i wished to post only those puzzles which were in fact worthy of interest

    used gsf's software to quickly obtain some measures --
      -B -f%(V?I2:99)x -q{NF}{B2B3}-G
      -B -f%(V?I2:99)x -q{NF}{B2B3H2T2}-G
      -B -f%(V?I2:99)x -q{NF}{B2B3H2T2H3T3H4T4}-G
      -B -f%(V?I2:99)x -q{NF}{B2B3H2T2H3T3H4T4W2W3W4}-G
    i.e. ignore "singles" and count other moves --
      box\line, line\box
      + duos
      + larger subsets (trios, quartets)
      + X-wing, Swordfish, Jellyfish

    this only gives me a lower-bound on the number of moves needed,
    but that's enough to flag this puzzle as odd:
      at least 5 moves needed
      until allowing X-wing, Swordfish, Jellyfish
      suddenly reduces to a 1-stage puzzle

    *
    lower-bound -- may need more moves (each stage may need more than one move);
    still, this information was sufficient for a
    reasonable suspicion that there are 2 paths which
    differ significantly in the number of moves needed.

      finding an upper-bound is a bit messy
      . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . -
        change -B to -S and you quickly get an upper-bound;

        but the information is often not-very-useful,
        as it can be quite high
        (depends on the order in which the software finds various possible moves);

        to get a more meaningful upper-bound,
        it is necessary to test several isomorphs,
        = messy
      . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . -
      eventually i did take the time to solve it (both ways)
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