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nataraj
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: sept 13 |
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not very hard, when UR looking at it the right way. |
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Mindwarp
Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 25 Location: St. Ives, England
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: |
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A fairly easy puzzle. On Draw/Play, first enter all numbers possible without sweep and after that just sweep and eliminate. |
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TexCat
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 32
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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I got stuck here:
Code: |
+------------+----------+---------+
| 23 26 8 | 4 236 5 | 1 9 7 |
| 257 267 9 | 1 26 8 | 25 4 3 |
| 1 4 35 | 27 237 9 | 6 25 8 |
+------------+----------+---------+
| 25 1 7 | 9 8 4 | 25 3 6 |
| 9 25 6 | 3 1 7 | 8 25 4 |
| 8 3 4 | 6 5 2 | 7 1 9 |
+------------+----------+---------+
| 37 79 2 | 5 49 6 | 34 8 1 |
| 6 59 35 | 8 49 1 | 34 7 2 |
| 4 8 1 | 27 27 3 | 9 6 5 |
+------------+----------+---------+
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Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
What am I missing? |
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sdq_pete
Joined: 30 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Rotterdam, NL
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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The UR on 27 putting 3 at R3C5, presumably. Since we normally don't seem to have to rely on UR's I'm curious if anyone spotted an XY wing or such.
Peter |
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duffy
Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 26 Location: Toronto Canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Since I learned about UR's (thanks, Keith!) a couple of months ago, I find them interesting and useful. After the previous one for 27's in boxes 2 and 8, there is immediately another one in boxes 1 and 2 on 26's. And for the record, I did not see any wings except for an earlier x-wing on 5's in rows 2 and 4.
I am glad to be back here, after having to re-register since the server problems a few months ago.
Don D. |
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cgordon
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | What am I missing? |
Texcat: From your grid there's a UR that leaves a 7 in R2C1. Though when I did it there was another 257 in R4C1 which, according to Keith's UR post made the UR a Type 2. |
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lkmckin
Joined: 25 May 2007 Posts: 9
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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You can use a finned fish on [2] in cols 1 and 7 to eliminate [2] from r2c2.
You can use an XY wing to eliminate [5] from r2c1.
Now, r2c7 is forced to [5] and the rest comes easily after that.
I hate URs because they assume something additional about the puzzle (that it has a unique solution). |
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nataraj
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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sure thing, peter.
from this position
Code: |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 23 26 8 | 4 236 5 | 1 9 7 |
| 257 25679 579 | 1 267 8 | 25 4 3 |
| 1 4 357 | 27 237 9 | 6 25 8 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 257 1 57 | 9 8 4 | 25 3 6 |
| 9 25 6 | 3 1 7 | 8 25 4 |
| 8 3 4 | 6 5 2 | 7 1 9 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 37 79 2 | 5 49 6 | 34 8 1 |
| 6 59 359 | 8 49 1 | 34 7 2 |
| 4 8 1 | 27 27 3 | 9 6 5 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
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an xwing in 5 cols 1 and 7,
later on an xy-wing pivot r1c1 (23) with 35-23-25 getting rid of 5 in r2c1 which opens the puzzle.
might have missed an intermediate step or two but those are the highlights I remember |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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TexCat wrote: | I got stuck here:
Code: |
+------------+----------+---------+
| 23 26 8 | 4 236 5 | 1 9 7 |
| 257 267 9 | 1 26 8 | 25 4 3 |
| 1 4 35 | 27 237 9 | 6 25 8 |
+------------+----------+---------+
| 25 1 7 | 9 8 4 | 25 3 6 |
| 9 25 6 | 3 1 7 | 8 25 4 |
| 8 3 4 | 6 5 2 | 7 1 9 |
+------------+----------+---------+
| 37 79 2 | 5 49 6 | 34 8 1 |
| 6 59 35 | 8 49 1 | 34 7 2 |
| 4 8 1 | 27 27 3 | 9 6 5 |
+------------+----------+---------+
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Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
What am I missing? |
There is a Type 6 rectangle in boxes 1 and 2, with the 26 pairs on the diagonal. The four corners are an X-Wing on 6, so the two bivalue cells must be 6 to preclude the deadly pattern. Then remote pairs on 25 take out the 2 from r2c2, leaving it solved with a 7. I don't know offhand if that finishes the puzzle. |
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sdq_pete
Joined: 30 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Rotterdam, NL
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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nataraj wrote: | an xwing in 5 cols 1 and 7,
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Thanks - I seem not very good at X-wings, or, at least, I think I tend to forget to look for them explicitly and to concentrate on XY and XYZ wings.
Peter |
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cgordon
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going bonkers with this one. According to Texcats grid (and my solution) there is a UR for 257 on R2C17 and R4C17. That should make R2C1 a 7 and eliminate the 7 from R7C1 - but it doesn't - R7C1 is the 7.
Pls help!! |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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cgordon wrote: | I'm going bonkers with this one. According to Texcats grid (and my solution) there is a UR for 257 on R2C17 and R4C17. That should make R2C1 a 7 and eliminate the 7 from R7C1 - but it doesn't - R7C1 is the 7.
Pls help!! |
Craig, the problem is that it is not a rectangle. All the rectangle theories are based on the fact of the rectangle being in just two boxes; the 257 occupies four boxes. With four boxes, there is no "deadly pattern." |
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cgordon
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Marty.
I didn't know that!! A week ago I thought I was an expert on URs. I was gonna move on to Medusa Wraps. Then on Monday I found out you can't use 3 triples and a quad in a UR - and now the corners have to be in 2 boxes. I should stick to naked-singles. |
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TKiel
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 292 Location: Kalamazoo, MI
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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I'd clear that with the significant other first. |
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TKiel
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 292 Location: Kalamazoo, MI
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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When I got here (a spot similar to Texcat's and nataraj's position) I saw but decided to ignore the <27> UR in hopes of finding something else, so I went hunting for wings. I missed the (25)(23)(35) with pivot in r1c1 but noticed there was a (23)(35)(25) with pivot in r3c3. Unfortunately, no exclusions were directly possible with it. But applying W-wing with coloring logic (I hope) to the XY-wing, the strong links on <2> show that <2> can be excluded from r1c2.
Code: |
*--------------------------------------------------*
| 23B 26 8 | 4 236 5 | 1 9 7 |
| 257 67 9 | 1 26 8 | 25 4 3 |
| 1 4 35 | 27 237 9 | 6 25A 8 |
|----------------+----------------+----------------|
| 25 1 7 | 9 8 4 | 25 3 6 |
| 9 25A 6 | 3 1 7 | 8 25a 4 |
| 8 3 4 | 6 5 2 | 7 1 9 |
|----------------+----------------+----------------|
| 37 79 2 | 5 49 6 | 34 8 1 |
| 6 59 35 | 8 49 1 | 34 7 2 |
| 4 8 1 | 27 27 3 | 9 6 5 |
*--------------------------------------------------*
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One of the cells marked A or B must be 2, because of the XY-wing. Any cell that sees both can be excluded. |
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Asellus
Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 865 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Tracy,
Your coloring based on the XY Wing is more interesting than you realize.
Code: | *--------------------------------------------------*
|#2R3 26 8 | 4 236 5 | 1 9 7 |
| 257 67 9 | 1 26 8 | 2r5 4 3 |
| 1 4 35 | 27 237 9 | 6 2G5 8 |
|----------------+----------------+----------------|
|#2r5 1 7 | 9 8 4 | 2g5 3 6 |
| 9 2g5 6 | 3 1 7 | 8 2r5 4 |
| 8 3 4 | 6 5 2 | 7 1 9 |
|----------------+----------------+----------------|
| 37 79 2 | 5 49 6 | 34 8 1 |
| 6 59 35 | 8 49 1 | 34 7 2 |
| 4 8 1 | 27 27 3 | 9 6 5 |
*--------------------------------------------------* |
The <2>s on the ends of the XY Wing are a conjugate pair (strong link). I've used R and G to mark them, then colored the other conjugates with r and g. Not only is the <2> at R1C2 eliminated by the rg "trap," but there is a color "wrap" caused by having two "reds" in C1, marked #.
So, all of the "red" <2>s can be removed and all the "green" <2>s placed.
(Note: There is no W-Wing type of coloring logic, as discussed recently on another thread, involved here.) |
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keith
Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 3355 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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The UR solves it.
Or, there is an XY-wing followed by an X-wing and then a remote pair.
Keith |
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cgordon
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'm into ERs (an advanced technique). There's one on 5's from C7 that says R4C3 cannot be a 5. This exposes the UR already alluded to. |
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Mogulmeister
Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 1151
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Empty rectangles (ER) is a technique that (in my opinion) helps out at the early phase of a puzzle and is a nice visual tool. Havard put it forward
http://www.sudoku.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=3251&start=0
and on his own board.
I find these days that I don't encounter them nearly as much and can only conclude that it is because I am making those eliminations with other strong-link based techniques. |
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TKiel
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 292 Location: Kalamazoo, MI
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Asellus wrote: | The <2>s on the ends of the XY Wing are a conjugate pair (strong link). |
Are you saying that in all cases the end cells of an XY-wing are conjugate pairs?
Or that in this case they just happen to be the end cells of an XY-wing and just happen to be conjugate?
Cuz, I'm having a hard time seeing either one, but it wouldn't be the first time I missed something like that. I can't think of anything inherent in the XY-wing that precludes them both being <2> and I can't find a simple coloring chain that strongly links them. The cells are linked only in that we know from the XY-wing that at least one of them must be <2>. |
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